#marriage in westeros

[death-of-cats]

okay I know Westerosi marriage customs are fucked seven ways but

surely this HAS to be Stannis's personal misogyny, and not general Westerosi opinion, right? Asha's "marriage" just can't be accepted as real by the rest of society, right?

like i get that mutual consent is not a requirement, that's been established in the books by precedent. But a marriage that lacks consent AND the bride never said the vows AND was never consummated AND lacks religious legitimation (both among the ironborn and the rest of Westeros) AND lacks secular legitimation (again, who outside of the Iron Islands is gonna think Euron is a legitimate ruler? surely not Stannis) wouldn't be accepted by the rest of the noble houses, right? otherwise just, what are we doing. a clown car version of a social institution.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hi, I was wondering if you could answer a question I had about how much authority a lord has over his extended family members. Like if a lord wants to marry off one of his brother’s daughters, can he do so even if his brother refuses to agree? Who holds the most authority in a situation like that? Does it change depending on the status of the lord in question- like if he was a king, lord paramount or someone from a great house rather than a more typical lord?

Again re feudalism, a lord has as much authority as his vassals allow him, and vassals include family members. (And "allow" includes what they feel they must do per traditions and societal pressures.) Look at how Hoster Tully tried to marry off his brother Brynden to Bethany Redwyne. Brynden refused, and though this pissed off Hoster and strained his relationship with his brother, that's how he left it. A more cruel lord, who loved his brother less and his status more, might use more pressure to get his way. Lords are not bound by any law or custom to support their family members, so in the case you mention, that lord might then tell his brother "fine, then, you and your daughters have to leave". And faced with having to make his own way in the world while supporting his girls, the brother might bow his head and submit. Or maybe he would decide to be a hedge knight after all, or maybe he'd have in-laws he could look to for support, it all depends.

Though again re feudalism (because the feudal contract goes both ways), theoretically this brother could try to go over his lord brother's head and appeal to their overlord. See for example Lord Wyman Webber, who when faced with a daughter, Rohanne, who refused to marry per his command, instead wrote a will that said she had to marry within two years of his death or the lordship and the castle of Coldmoat would go to her cousin instead. It was asked within the story, couldn't Lady Rohanne appeal to her overlord, Lord Rowan, and have him override the will? Well, she tried, but that Webber cousin just happened to be married to Lord Rowan's sister, and so he upheld the will. But maybe in a different situation something could be done -- perhaps the overlord is known to be particularly noble, or perhaps this pressured brother has a connection to the overlord (maybe via his wife, maybe they were companions in battle or as squires). But still, the brother would have to take his daughter with him during this appeal, or he might return to find out she's been married off in his absence.

And as for the girl herself, could she not refuse? Even if she's underage, isn't it true, as Sansa thinks, "Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows"? Well, we have Sansa's own example, where when she was faced with marrying Tyrion, Cersei told her she could be dragged to the altar and make a spectacle to be laughed at but they'd still make her do it anyway... and so Sansa submitted and said the vows. See also how Randyll Tarly forced his son Sam to join the Night's Watch. Sam didn't have to submit, there is no law saying he had to obey, but his father threatened to kill him if he didn't, and due to Sam's experience with his father's abuse (and what that abuse did to his personality), he fully believed him. Someone once asked me if an overlord could help there (though weirdly they mentioned Stannis, who wouldn't be able to do anything even if he wanted to), and the point I had to explain was that Sam was so beaten down by the abuse he never would have even considered going over his father's head, even if he could have somehow escaped his father's guards on the way north.

So with these examples, you can see where the status of the lord in question may change things -- a king, for example, has no overlords to appeal to. A lord paramount's brother could only appeal to the king. This status also changes what pressure the lord can bring to bear -- a very small lord may only have a sworn sword to threaten his brother with, a bigger lord could have a whole garrison, and the king would have not just the Kingsguard and the castle guard and the city guard but theoretically every lord and soldier in the country to use as pressure. Again, feudalism works both ways.

And generally none of this is even stated aloud. Everybody just knows the answer to "you and what army?" and so even family members understand what their lord pressuring them means. (Girls particularly innately understand this, along with patriarchal pressure; like Roslin Frey had no real choice at the Red Wedding but to obey her father, brothers, uncles, and cousins.) So, like so many things in ASOIAF's medieval-inspired era, the personal is the political. Only the personalities of the people involved, and their means of pressure or access routes to escape, are what truly defines what can happen in cases like this.

[starry-eyer]

I don’t mean to create a straw man, but when people attack Lyanna by stating she ‘should’ve done her duty,’ they are, frankly, advocating for her to have been raped.

However, I doubt that group is ready to have this conversation.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

I know most in this fandom consider Ned x Cat boring, however Catelyn thinking Ned as the rock her life was built on and also her final thought being about Ned really slap so hard!

[atopvisenyashill]

my hot take of the day is that clearly the people who swallow the in universe targ & valyrian exceptionalism are being completely taken in by the exact system that george is trying to critique but also i think the people who over correct into this idea that not a single targaryen is worthy of like, our empathy or sorrow or are rightfully chafing against the structures put in place by valyrians, first men, and andals alike are also being incredibly 2d in their analysis. i feel like this happens most often when people try to make the case that andals are somehow oppressed in westerosi society on a cultural level simply bc valyrian supremacy trumps andal culture. i think this is incredibly silly to say or posit as the truth in universe because there is in fact some oppression of culture in westeros but it’s not the andals lol!!! it’s the first men, the dornish, the rhoynar/greenblood orphans, and the ironborn. there Is some level of,,,, idk bigotry/xenophobia towards valyrians but only valyrians who don’t worship the faith - people like larra rogare, who still follow valyrian gods, do face this bigotry because they’re Too Foreign, the same way someone like thoros, melisandre, taena, etc who are essosi but not from a still heavy valyrian-based society like volantis and lys, and that’s definitely important to the conversation, because it shows the Dominant Culture is in fact the Andal culture when it comes to westeros and that’s like,,, fine, and even more interesting to me to see how andals, who have been the dominant force on westeros for thousands of years, interact with valyrians, who clearly want to keep ideas of valyrian supremacy alive somehow and essentially try to get the other dominant force in westeros to buy in (which they do!). like, are these two at odds sometimes? yes! but i don’t think it’s correct to say that the andals face ~prejudice for being andals or followers of the faith either!

[fromstormsend]

Both Garlan and Gendry are Renly's ghosts and both of them have apple symbols in their love affairs. Garlan's wife Leonette is from House Fossoway which has an apple on its sigil and Arya threw crabapple to Gendry's head.

[yuionyx]

Dalton Greyjoy is a canonical child groom and I've never seen anyone talking about it...

He's the only example of a child groom (outside of the Targaryens) that I can think of... and it's so weird that he has FOUR marriages already at 14 (ambiguity left to say he could have gotten married even younger) and fathers his first son at 14-15 but no one mentiones it.

[valyriandreamer]

𝔐arriage 𝔦n 𝔚esteros

MARRIAGE:

A marriage is a legally or formally recognised union, typically between two people. In most cases, it is a religious ceremony between one man and one woman who should not be more closely related than first cousins. The union involves the exchange of vows in the presence of sacred witnesses, such as a septon (for the Faith of the Seven), a heart tree (for the old gods), or a priest or priestess (for the Drowned God). The ceremony is followed by a feast where the bride and groom celebrate with their guests. The event concludes with the bedding, during which the marriage is consummated.

WEDDING CEREMONIES:

In Westeros, the wedding ceremony is a religious affair. The bride's father, or someone standing in for him, escorts the bride to her future husband and those officiating the marriage.

⋆ ─ Faith of the Seven: A septon presides over the ceremony, which includes prayers, vows, and singing, and takes place in a sept. The bride wears a maiden’s cloak in her house’s colours. The bride's father, or his representative, removes her cloak, allowing her husband to drape a cloak in his own house colours over her shoulders. This act symbolizes the bride’s transition from her father’s protection to her husband’s. The bride and groom then exchange vows, with the septon declaring them man and wife, proclaiming they are "one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever."

⋆ ─ Old Gods: The ceremonies are much shorter and involve no priests. The bride is escorted to her groom, who waits in front of the weirwood tree in the godswood. A ceremonial exchange follows, confirming the identities of the bride, the groom, and the person giving the bride away. The bride is asked to accept her husband, and upon her agreement ("I take this man"), the couple joins hands, kneels before the heart tree, and bows their heads as a sign of submission. After a moment of silent prayer, the couple rises, and the groom removes the maiden's cloak, placing his own cloak around the bride's shoulders. He then carries her to the feast in his arms. Some northmen believe that snow on a wedding day foretells a cold marriage.

CONSUMMATION:

In Westeros, the bedding occurs after the feast. The bride is escorted to her bedroom, often by the male guests, who undress her along the way while making crude jokes. The women at the feast perform the same for the groom. Once the bride and groom are in the bedchamber, they are typically left alone, though guests may gather outside the door, shouting suggestions. In some cases, witnesses may be present for the bedding, but the extent of their involvement remains unclear.

Women, especially noblewomen, are generally expected to be virgins on their wedding night. After some weddings, the bedsheets are displayed to show blood, proving the bride's virginity.

Although it is rare for a marriage to take place before the bride has had her first flowering, it does occasionally happen. However, bedding a bride so young is considered perverse.

Lords in Westeros once held the right to the first night, allowing them to bed newly-wed women before their husbands. Queen Alysanne persuaded King Jaehaerys I to abolish this practice, but it continues illegally in some parts of the North.

DIVORCE:

Vows spoken at swordpoint are not considered valid, and in theory, a marriage can not be declared if either person refuses to say the vows. However, issues of consent can still arise even when the vows are willingly spoken. In cases where lands are at stake, a lord might still claim the marriage as legal, even if it occurred under duress.

In the religion of the Drowned God, it is possible for someone to be married by proxy, without their consent, or personally saying the vows. However, if the marriage has not been consummated, it can easily be annulled.

In the Seven Kingdoms, marriages can be ended in various ways. A king has the authority to set aside his queen, even if she has borne him children, in favour of marrying another.

Under the Faith of the Seven, a marriage that has not been consummated can be annulled by the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Even if the marriage has been consummated, it can still be annulled, regardless of its length or whether children are involved. An annulment can be granted in the absence of either spouse, though it must be requested by at least one of them. The exact procedures of a Council of Faith remain undefined.

Another way to end a marriage is for the bride to join the Silent Sisters. Similarly, when a man takes the vows of the Night's Watch, his marriage is considered null and void.

POLYGAMY:

Before the Andals arrived in Westeros, Garland II Gardener, a King of the Reach known as the Bridegroom, had multiple wives. To marry the daughter of Lord Lymond Hightower, he set aside his other wives. According to the songs, Ronard Storm, a Storm King, had twenty-three wives.

Followers of the Drowned God may have only one rock wife, with whom they have trueborn children, but they are permitted to take multiple salt wives. Children born of salt wives are not considered bastards and can inherit if there are no heirs from the rock wife.

⋆ ─ All my information comes from the A Wiki of Ice and Fire page!

[therealslimshakespeare]

Ok ok, plot and fic tangles are plentiful in my mind but the ending episode did suggest Prince Aemond got himself engaged to a Baratheon, yes? If that had worked out sans-Alys: I’ve got thots. Anyone written this? I’ve most particularly got thots about a member of House Baratheon finally mounting a damn dragon

…no not like that. Not just like that. Only partly like that…

[is-lu-for-everyone]

Thinking about Catelyn and Cersei and names. Thinking about Catelyn Tully and Catelyn Stark and both of them, and thinking about Cersei Lannister , only Lannister.

Thinking about Lady Stark and Hoster Tully's daughter. Thinking about Queen Cersei and Tywin Lannister's daughter.

I don't remember ever reading Cersei Baratheon the way I remember reading Catelyn Stark.

And probably is a thing about queens not taking their husband's names. Is about Cersei Lannister and Alicent Hightower and Margaery Tyrell.

Maybe is just that, the queen doesn't take the King's name. The Queen is the queen and part of the King but not quite.

But my brain thinks about Catelyn Tully and Catelyn Stark and thinks about Cersei Lannister, just Lannister.

I think about Catelyn Tully mother of wolves and Catelyn Stark daughter of the riverlands. I think about Cersei Lannister daughter of lions and mother of lions, Cersei Lannister who was never a Baratheon, not like Catelyn became a Stark.

Thinking about Olenna Tyrell, who once was Olenna Redwyne but she is mostly Tyrell now, because she made it that way, because that is her family, and she made the best out of the name. Thinking about Alicent Hightower, another Queen, one had taken back the green colors of her house, whose children were Targaryen in name but she never was, too much of an outsider to be one . Thinking about Lysa Arryn, more Arryn than Tully, confined, betrayed, as she was, alone all the way up in the Eyrie..

Thinking about many things i cant put words on, about Cersei Lannister, never a Baratheon, who could have been Cersei Baratheon if things were kinder, better, if Robert was better and she was too.

Thinking about Catelyn who was a Tully and was a Stark and had family in both names. Thinking about the Sept and the septa for her daughters, thinking about her in the Godswood even when she doesn't quite like it but does so for her husband.

Thinking about Cersei Lannister and just Lannister, who has just one family that is not quite family. Thinking about how she was not a Baratheon and didn't want to be one, and so she turned the Red Keep into another lion's den.

I haven't read the books in a while, but maybe is just my mind who can't think of Cersei as a Baratheon the way I can think of Catelyn as a Stark.

Either way, I'm thinking about Catelyn and Cersei and names.

[fruitageoforanges]

aemond & aegon's valyrian wedding, with helaena officiating, from my fic.

(please zoom in for more detail! there are a lot of details, for example, the handfasting binding is embroidered with vhagar and sunfyre!)

[starry-eyer]

comparing elia martell to princess diana is kinda insane

cause the real princess diana of westeros was rhaegar

[celtigaar]

my base canon for cerys post-dance is she does find viserys, is the one who looks after him, and eventually returns with him to westeros. obv this is a divergence from canon in re to the rogares. while cerys would never, ever knowingly permit the marriage between child viserys and larra, i do think there's room with my version of events for the rogares to still have found some means of ingratiating themselves if the rogare conspiracies are important for anyone's portrayals.

[ladysnows]

me a bigger fan of starks than targs: why haven't these families married into each other yet????

[sukibenders]

"I'm part of House Targaryen!" "I want to be a Stark!" "I'm definitely a Lannister-"

Me, on my way to Dorne to be a Martell, even though I don't do well in the heat, because I don't want to deal with the foolishness that is THAT part of Westeros (I do want a dragon though!):

[tragedy-peanut-gallery]

actually, now that I'm thinking about it a bit more, how do you imagine daenora's life and relationship with aegon iv (and maybe naerys too) would differ from canon daeron ii's? considering the rumors surrounding jeyne lothson's parentage, i would fear for daenora's safety but maybe hopefully aegon iv would just ignore and neglect her. how do you think naerys would try to protect her eldest daughter and what would she try to teach her as a mother (because she'll probably try to rectify the mistakes of her parents and maybe give her daughter the girlhood she wished she had)?

(side note: while daenora would probably marry maron martell in place of daenerys, wouldn't it be awesome if she was gay and she and myriah still fell in love?)

Oh I am TERRIFIED as to what sort of relationship Daenora would’ve had with her dad, because as you’ve said the potential of someone being his daughter has nottttt stopped him from sleeping with said potential daughter. I think theoretically she would be safe for her childhood seeing as both Baelor and Viserys are around to keep the guy mostly in line, but make no mistake I know for a FACT Aegon would’ve had some weird behaviours towards Daenora (that is some more cool gothic horror potential in the doomrot family but still-)

Obviously Naerys would not be cool with that but like… tbh I don’t think there’s anything she could do, aside from keeping her daughter close just to make sure Aegon wouldn’t ouright hurt her. No one tried to protect Naerys from her monstrous brother-husband, so I could see her viewing Daenora as her younger self and wanting to keep her safe- even if that means being overbearing and overly attached which creates a really unhealthy relationship for them both, yippee!!!

(Also- side note to your side note, I like that idea too cause I love adding more sapphics to this series <3)